Martinus
Catweazle's Apprentice
Posts: 38
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Post by Martinus on Feb 29, 2024 16:28:51 GMT
Hail and greetings, Ma(gi)ster Allan,
(Written in a mild hurry:) I support your initiative, many thanks once again!
Probably I didn't use the Search function in the proper way, but I didn't find anything on the Catweazle website on Latin. I plan to go through all the episodes looking for Latin quotes during the next holidays. At least one of Catweazle's incantations isn't in correct Latin, so that may be a reason why nothing worked ;-).
Spirit names have my interest, too, by the way.
Take thee care!
Martinus
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Post by Alan Hayes on Feb 29, 2024 16:41:41 GMT
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Martinus
Catweazle's Apprentice
Posts: 38
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Post by Martinus on Feb 29, 2024 17:15:36 GMT
Silly me. I thank thee! I'll see if I can find some more.
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Post by southernspirits on Feb 29, 2024 21:24:10 GMT
There's definitely a little bit of ecclesiastical Latin in 'Telling Bone' - just 'fortuitously' spoken by Catweazle to provide an opening for the vicar to respond enthusiastically (thinking Catweazle might be a member of the flock) while CW is still on his church tower The vicar responds in kind, but, its phrases only
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Martinus
Catweazle's Apprentice
Posts: 38
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Post by Martinus on Mar 4, 2024 20:32:26 GMT
Dum vivimus, Latine loquamur :-).
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Post by southernspirits on Mar 5, 2024 4:20:31 GMT
And there's an incantation of some kind in Episode One too, while Catweazle is still in 1067-1069, whatever his home year might have been!
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Martinus
Catweazle's Apprentice
Posts: 38
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Post by Martinus on Mar 5, 2024 14:57:58 GMT
In episode 1 at 2'59'' Catweazle seems to say 'Besticam consolatio veni ad me - repeats veni ad me - vertat'.
Assuming that Catweazle is pronouncing the spell correctly and without ommissions, this can't be correct Latin, at least not as I know it. It would translate into something like 'Beastly consolation (or comfort or encouragement) come to me, may he turn (or change)'. Moreover, as besticam (couldn't find the word besticus in a dictionary) is accusative and consolatio is nominative, they don't fit together.
So what is Catweazle trying to do? Is he perhaps summoning or encouraging some monstrous entity to appear and then change into something else?
Medieval Latin is somewhat different from classical Latin, but if the invoked spirit has a sense for grammar, I'm not surprised that 'nothing worked'. Poor Catweazle ...
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Martinus
Catweazle's Apprentice
Posts: 38
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Post by Martinus on Mar 5, 2024 15:01:53 GMT
In episode 1 at 2'59'' Catweazle seems to say 'Besticam consolatio veni ad me - repeats veni ad me - vertat'.
Assuming that Catweazle is pronouncing the spell correctly and without ommissions, this can't be correct Latin, at least not as I know it. It would translate into something like 'Beastly consolation (or comfort or encouragement) come to me, may he turn (or change)'. Moreover, as besticam (couldn't find the word besticus in a dictionary) is accusative and consolatio is nominative, they don't fit together.
So what is Catweazle trying to do? Is he perhaps summoning or encouraging some monstrous entity to appear and then change into something else?
Medieval Latin is somewhat different from classical Latin, but if the invoked spirit has a sense for grammar, I'm not surprised that 'nothing worked'. Poor Catweazle ...
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Post by southernspirits on Mar 6, 2024 0:07:45 GMT
Hmmmm. Did Richard 'plant' these revelations for the educated to uncover? I wonder that Catweazle's success rate was even as good as it was Catweazle does seem to be woefully ignorant of/indifference to ecclesiastical matters I will say, which may explain his inadequate Latin - which perhaps doesn't surprise as he's taking something of a divergent path to scriptural orthodox (!)
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Martinus
Catweazle's Apprentice
Posts: 38
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Post by Martinus on Apr 2, 2024 18:39:12 GMT
Mayhap there is a way to exonerate Catweazle (or rather Richard Carpenter) from ignorance of the Latin language in Episode 1 'The Sun in a Bottle'. First, Catweazle is just reading aloud the spell that is in his magic booook. So likely the magician who invented the spell is to be blamed. Secondly, could it be that 'besticam' belongs to a preceding sentence, which we hear only the last word of? And likewise, could 'vertat' be the first word of a third sentence? I.e.: "..... besticam. Consolatio veni ad me. Vertat ...." This at least would grammatically be correct. Admittedly, Catweazle's pronounciation doesn't sound like this at all, but hey: he probably isn't that well versed in Latin and I'm only looooking for a way out of this grammatical mess.
In Episode 6 'The Magic Face' at 22'26" Catweazle says: "Oooh, spirits of earth, air, fire and watter, I charge thee: bear me hence!" In the novelisation (Chapter 7 "The enchanting box" p.100), this spell reappears in a slightly altered Latin translation: "Venite spiritus, coeli et terrae, ignis et aquae, ab hoc loco abripite me!" (= "Come spirits, of heaven and earth, fire and water, take me away from this place!"), which is correct Latin. (Maybe a Roman would have said 'hinc' instead of 'ab hoc loco', but Catweazle most probably is reading medieval Latin).
Also, the short Latin phrases in Episode 7 'The Telling Bone' are correct: "Venite, venite spiritus!" (= "Come, come, spirits!") "Dum vivimus vivamus." (= "Let us live, while we live.") Mind you: the vicar is pronouncing vivimus and vivamus in exactly the same way (= "We live while we live"), which takes away the message 'seize the day'. "terra firma" (= the same) "Nil desperandum" (= "There is nothing to despair about.")
So Carpenter knew his Latin, or at least consulted someone who did. Therefore, I in the case of Episode 1 ("Besticam ... vertat") mayhap we should ask the jury for an acquittal: in dubio pro reo.
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Post by southernspirits on Apr 2, 2024 23:03:25 GMT
'Excusare in abundantia delicti est misericordiam ante sapientiam ponere.' At least, Google Translate tells me so! I think you're spot on re Richard, but perhaps there's another explanation.... I wonder if it was a case of the actors slightly 'fluffing' their lines, but Quentin not bothering to do a retake given that the audience predominantly would be none the wiser?! Do we know if Geoffrey knew Latin, or the actor playing the Vicar? I will say that Catweazle's Latin is at least as suspect as Geoffrey's! You realise too that Catweazle's English is far too 'advanced' (or can say 'misplaced') for 1070c - its more reminiscent of 1550 Nothing to take issue with in that though: if it had been 'authentic' 1070 English the audience would have needed continuous subtitles!
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