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Post by londonwizard on Dec 17, 2021 18:34:35 GMT
After watching Catweazle again recently, I started wondering about the way he speaks.
I know that in the 11th Century, where Catweazle comes from, they spoke a type of English, or actually several different types of English, which speakers of modern English couldn’t understand unless they had studied it a bit before meeting an actual speaker. This is why Catweazle didn’t speak this kind of English in the series. It has a lot more in common with Dutch, Frisian, and German than Modern English has, although all these languages have also moved on since then. They had hens which laid eyren.
I think the kind of English spoken then is now called Old English, which was even more old fashioned than the type of English used in the John Wycliffe English Bible as well as by Geoffrey Chaucer. Although this version of The Bible was written in the 14th Century, most English language versions of The Bible are designed to sound more old fashioned than the English spoken at the time. I’ve read that the John Wycliffe Bible and Chaucer are actually written in Middle English.
Catweazle comes from a time not long after The Normans invaded England. He hates the Normans, so shouldn’t be using any of their words, but he does use them in the later form of English he’s speaking because as I said above otherwise no one would understand him! To confuse things even more, when Catweazle is in his cave in Episode 1 he has a spell book with a cover title which seems to be in Latin. Catweazle often uses the word “spirits”, but at that time I think the word used for this was “gastas” instead. You can find examples of Old English on the site www.arts.gla.ac.uk/stella/readings/OE/OE.HTM with the word “gastas” appearing under “The Dream of The Rood”. This site even has audio recordings of Old English.
So, I wonder if anyone can tell me what type of English Catweazle is actually speaking in the series? It seems to me to be Early Modern English, meaning more modern than Shakespeare’s 16th Century English. I particularly wonder about the pronunciation watter for water. I think it may still be used in some dialects, but when was it more widespread?
Catweazle often makes an exclamation that sounds like “Sigh!” Is this the same as “Say!” In American English?
Catweazle also has a northern accent. This could be because Geoffrey Bayldon was from Leeds, or because the southern type accents didn’t develop until after the 11th Century.
I hope some other people are interested in this subject!
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Post by londonwizard on Jan 15, 2022 12:29:49 GMT
I'm disappointed that no one has answered my question. I think I'll have to ask it on Quora, because on there people often ask questions about languages and dialects. If I get a good answer, then I'll make a post on here explaining what it said. BTW, I'm a linguist.
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Post by londonwizard on Jan 20, 2022 12:24:09 GMT
I posted some questions on Quora and did some research myself.
The southern English accent didn’t develop until some time after the 11th Century when Catweazle is supposed to be from, so this would be why Catweazle sounds northern. Geoffrey Bayldon was from Leeds anyway.
The pronunciation of water as watah is still found in northern English dialects today. I remember now hearing the phrase “I can feel it in my watah”.
The word “mayhap” first appeared in the 16th Century.
So, Catweazle’s way of talking is based on 16th Century English and northern English dialect.
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Post by Alan Hayes on Jan 20, 2022 15:28:02 GMT
The word “mayhap” first appeared in the 16th Century. So, Catweazle’s way of talking is based on 16th Century English and northern English dialect. Really? That's fascinating. I'd never have questioned it, but now you come to mention it, that does make sense. Great research, o Wizard of London! |
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yox
Touchwood's Minder
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Post by yox on Jan 23, 2022 21:04:30 GMT
Heya, Catweazle's language as used in both series is not authentic. Catweazle is set in the 11th century which is the time of the Norman Conquest where the majority of people spoke Old English (the others in western areas of Britain spoke Celtic languages). Old English was a purely Germanic language with many inflectional endings as modern German still is. No modern English speaker would understand it, not even in its written form. So it is understandable that the producers don't make Catweazle use his real language, we would have needed subtitles when listening to Catweazle and poor Geoffrey would have had a nightmarish job to learn the text. And the young TV audience would have turned off the TV quickly. With the Norman conquest the Middle English period started and the influence of the French conquerors on the English language was as big as it was on England's society and culture. The ruling French elite spoke French and English remained the language of the common people. Hardly has an invasion being more successful and more radical in its effects on the conquered country. It gradually also changed the language of the conquered English people and simplified its grammar by getting rid of the complex endings, for example. Many French words entered the English language with English words still expressing simple things of basic life (house, bread, wheat) whilst the French words were used for more complex and abstract matters (see words from my text here: majority, subtitles, conquest). Linguists have agreed on ending the Old English period at 1066, followed by the Middle English period lasting up to the late 15th century when Early Modern English started, the language also used by Shakespeare. Of course, the transitions between these periods is very slow so the change is hardly noticeable during the lifetime of an individual speaker. To give our time-travelling hero Catweazle the feeling that he comes from ancient times, the producers have equipped him with words from the Early Modern English language – a language which sounds “old” to us, but we can still understand. It would of course be interesting to give more examples for Catweazle’s use of that language but for this I would need to rewatch the series – I wanted to reply a bit earlier than that. Great, that the topic of language has been raised by you, Londonwizard. I am curious about other member’s opinions and observations.
Yox
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Post by londonwizard on Jan 24, 2022 2:26:48 GMT
Yox, of course I knew all that.
I found Shakespeare very difficult to read though and I haven't read much of his stuff. One of his books which I read as a free e-book kept using the word "marry", but this had a completely different meaning to its current meaning.
A fiairly recently uncovered fact is that when the Romans ruled England & Wales there was one type of native language in the east and another in the west. This was obviously before the Anglo-Saxon "invasion". It seems like nearly all the languages in Europe came from what's now Spain before the last ice age ended. The Romans said that a tribe called the "Belgicae" were present on both sides of the water (i.e. Britain and Continental Europe).
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yox
Touchwood's Minder
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Post by yox on Jan 27, 2022 1:55:35 GMT
Heya Londonwizard
It is great to have this discussion, I hope the others enjoy that as well.
Re your first point about Shakespeare's language:
Yes, as you explained, it is not easy to understand Shakespeare as a modern speaker of English and there have been, of course, changes in the meaning of words. You mentioned the word "to marry" as an example. The author and the producers did a good job at Catweazle using occasionally older forms and words to make him sound like a being from older times, as he indeed is.
Re your point about the languages or varieties of languages spoken in the UK when the Romans came to Britain:
When the Romans came to Britain, they came into contact with the Celts and their language. Celtic was not only spoken in Britain, but also in other areas of Europe, as you pointed out. So the Romans met Celtic speakers - the Celtic speakers of nowadays Great Britain were often related to as the "Britons". You mentioned the "Belgicae" - the Latin word for another Celtic tribe that lived on the other side of the Channel in an area that corresponds to nowadays Belgium. The Belgicae, however, did not settle in Britain.
You said that the language in the west of Britain was different to the one in the west. This is normal, the Celts were divided in different tribes also in Britain so they are likely to have had different dialects or varieties of their language.
As you pointed out, the English came to Britain much later, in ca 400-500 AD. The English (the Anglo-Saxons) were Germanic tribes immigrating from nowadays northern Germany, Netherlands and Denmark, into Britain and there started to dominate the native celtic Britons.
The Anglo-Saxons/English managed to take over large parts of Britain - but the original celtic language of the Britons survived, in areas of nowadays Wales and Scotland where neither the Romans nor the English managed or were willing to exercise their political and cultural influence.
yox
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